Caballos Ancestrales: los Descendientes del Tarpán

La fauna silvestre es la protagonista de este foro, donde tienen cabida todo tipo de comentarios relacionados con la investigación, conservación y protección de la misma.
Jonas
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El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por Jonas »

Parece ser que el Pony de Exmoor sería la raza de caballo "doméstica" más primitiva de todas las conocidas, adjunto interesante estudio del WWF donde se marcan las pautas a la hora de reconstituir sustitutos ecológicos de los extintos caballos salvajes y uros.
http://www.pdf.lv/doc_upl/Substitute_fo ... auroch.pdf
El Pony de Exmoor es un caballo auténtico no recreado que ha mantenido sus caractéristicas primitivas al subsistir sin intervención humana en los páramos de Exmoor en Inglaterra, zona no habitada por su insalubridad (improductivos brezales repletos de turberas).
Un saludo.
Jonás.


RAB
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por RAB »

El otro día daban un reportaje en la tele que hablaba precisamente de esto. Mediante estudios genéticos, comparaciones de huesos, y una gran imaginación, trataban de intuir cual seria la raza de caballo domestico mas antigua y la posible fundadora de las demás razas equinas que hoy tenemos.

No solamente hablaban del pony de Exmoor, también mencionaban al caballo del Caspio (una raza que hasta hace poco no tenia ni siquiera nombre y que se creía extinta) como una posible fundadora de las razas "de sangre caliente" actuales.
Por otro lado al caballo lusitano algunos le consideran la raza de montar más antigua del mundo.
Y el pony mongol fue domesticado en el 3000 aC y no ha sufrido tampoco ninguna variación, osea, están tal cual según se cree.
Y eso ya sin mencionar al tarpan, que se extinguio en 1909 y se la consideraba la raza mas antigua de Europa, especie que fue retratado en las pinturas rupestres de hace 30.000 años.

Reconozco que se poco de caballos, pero me mantengo escéptica. Aun con los avances científicos que tenemos, no creo que demos nunca con un caballo 100% prehistórico que se haya mantenido intacto desde entonces hasta hoy, como para poder decir que así eran los caballos prehistóricos, y aun menos con la infinidad de climas, habitats y tipos de caballos que existen.

No se si me explicado bien. De todas formas muchas gracias Jonas por la información :D


anibal
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por anibal »

crei que el pony de exmoor era una raza semisalvaje , o asalvajada es decir caballos que fueron asilvestrados en esos paramos y que han vivido sin intervencion humana desarrollando asi caracteres primitivos , oye sabeis si el asturcon es exactamente salvaje ?? yo tenia entendido que era el mismo caso que el pony de exmoor , caballos asilvestrados que conservavan los rasgos del caballo primitivo , en cuanto al tarpan , en ucrania han reintroducido caballos de prezalski , el ultimo caballo salvaje pero nose cuantos ejemplares quedan de este superviviente , si me podeis ayudar con esto


RAB
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por RAB »

Como dice anibal, el pony de Exmoor es una raza semi-salvaje. Viven siguiendo sus pautas salvajes pero en cotos controlados por humanos, y cada año se capturan y se marcan los ejemplares para mantener fiel el recuento. También esta empezando a tener lugar una especie de cría selectiva, por lo que se ve hay ponys de Exmoor mas especiales que otros, yo hasta aquí ya no llego, je, je.

En cuanto al asturcon, es un caballo que si ha sido domesticado, aunque sus orígenes son salvajes. Los romanos ya habían sacado provecho de el e incluso hoy una vez al año tiene lugar el acontecimiento de "la doma del asturcon", como ocurre con el pony de Exmoor.

El caballo de Przewlski es como dices el único caballo 100% salvaje, nunca ha sido domesticado porque tiene un temperamento muy agresivo (como la cebra) y morfológicamente es tan parecido a los caballos retratados en las cuevas prehistóricas que durante mucho tiempo se pensó que este caballo era el “eslabón perdido”, el fundador de todas las razas domesticas. Pero como digo hace poco se llego a la conclusión que no era así, porque este caballo nunca ha sido domesticado y porque genéticamente se distancia demasiado de los caballos domésticos que tenemos. Por lo que se ve el originario caballo domestico y el Przewalski se separaron en dos ramas distintas mucho antes de la domesticación.


*Anibal:
La población total de Przewalskis es de 1000 ejemplares en todos los zoológicos del mundo. En 1992 se probó de reintroducir una pequeña manada de 12 ejemplares en las estepas de Mongolia, el resultado fue tan bueno que 6 años mas tarde ese lugar se convirtió en el Parque Nacional Hustai, donde el numero de “Takhis”, como llaman a estos caballos en su país, ha ido en aumento. Actualmente esta en mente reintroducirlos en otras reservas euroasiáticas, aunque su estado es el de seriamente amenazado.

Se poco del tema, así que si me equivoco estoy abierta a rectificaciones, pero de momento esto es lo que oí.

Saludos!


Chernublo
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por Chernublo »

No parece tan dificil. El unico problema en el que es necesaria la intervención humana, si tenemos prisa por ver algo parecido a un caballo antiguo, es la obtención de la librea. Una vez liberados caballitos con una librea similar a la de los caballos que poblaron un determinado lugar; si es un hábitat sano, con sus presas y predadores, la selección natural deshará el camino de la domesticación en lo que a caracteres fijados se refiere.
Esto no lo veremos nosotros, ni nuestros nietos, pero si queremos trigo tendremos que plantar la semilla y confiar en que no se agoste o se apedree. La selección natural es "ley de dios" y actuará como debe abriendo camino a los mas aptos con el transcurso de los siglos(Esto es lo que mueve a la evolución), como ha hecho por ejemplo en el caso de los muflones europeos.
Por muchas variedades que halllamos creado, el caballo doméstico sigue siendo todo una misma especie y sigue siendo la misma que se arrancó de Natura para aprovecharla. Actuar y paciencia es lo unico que necesitamos, ninguna otra cosa.


linx
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por linx »

Hablando de caballos salvajes, tenemos lo ejemplo del encebro/zebro ( caballo de Sorraia):

http://equiworld.com/ssa/sorraia/index.htm


http://www.sorraia.org/


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anibal
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por anibal »

el encebro tengo entendido que no era un caballo sino un asno salvaje como los hemiones o asnos salvajes asiaticos que todavia quedan en mongolia , iran , turkmenistan ,kazajstan , uzbekistan , la india china , o los ultimos asnos salvajes africanos de somalia y etiopia , el encebro es una especie que casi nadie conoce vivio en españa y portugal hasta el siglo XV o XVI , es mas los portugueses bautizaron asi a las cebras que vieron en sus descubrimientos y exploraciones por africa en el siglo XV recordando al encebro iberico


linx
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por linx »

anibal escribió:el encebro tengo entendido que no era un caballo sino un asno salvaje como los hemiones o asnos salvajes asiaticos que todavia quedan en mongolia , iran , turkmenistan ,kazajstan , uzbekistan , la india china , o los ultimos asnos salvajes africanos de somalia y etiopia , el encebro es una especie que casi nadie conoce vivio en españa y portugal hasta el siglo XV o XVI , es mas los portugueses bautizaron asi a las cebras que vieron en sus descubrimientos y exploraciones por africa en el siglo XV recordando al encebro iberico
Anibal

Mira por más informaciones aqui:

http://www.sorraia.org/

Saludos


Kaiser
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por Kaiser »

Anibal en nuestro post "un yellowstone iberico es posible?", creo, hablamos mucho del sorraia, encebro y estos temas, concluyendo cosas diferentes a las que tu dices. Leelo si quieres y asi puedes darnos tu opinión

un saludo!


Lycaon
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por Lycaon »

Se está poniendo muy interesante el foro, justo ahora que casi no puedo pasarme por el ordenador ...

Yo siempre he sido de la idea que expresa anibal, en cuanto al cebro. Dado que las crónicas medievales lo describen como un asno salvaje de gran tamaño, y que en los yacimientos ibéricos de finales del Pleistoceno aparecen abundantes restos de un asno grande (Equus hydruntinus), para mí "blanco y en botella". Dejo un ejemplo, de un yacimiento segoviano:

http://estudiosgeol.revistas.csic.es/in ... le/205/206

En la segunda página, numerada arriba como 66, aparece en la línea 10 junto al caballo (Equus caballus).

Saludos


Kaiser
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por Kaiser »

Uff ahora me acuerdo. El encebro es el Equus hydruntinus casi seguro. De hecho, en wikipedia lo han aceptado ya asi, si buscas encebro te redireccionan al Equus hydruntinus directamente. Debia de ser una poblacion relicta que sobrevivió acantonada en el sur de Iberia hasta que nos la comimos.

El sorraia mantiene la duda de si son tarpanes más o menos evolucionados, mantenidos en estado semisalvaje,


alvalufer
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por alvalufer »

Del encebro se habló mucho y bien en el post llamado "especies extintas recientemente,redescubiertas...". Mítico post dentro de est foro para mi gusto.Por ahí ha de andar el enlace,mañana si eso lo pongo en este tema para el que guste de completar la información.


linx
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por linx »

Me parece que poca gente tuve la atención de consultar esto:

http://www.sorraia.org/

Wikipedia sobre el zebro:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebro

«O zebro ou zevro é uma espécie extinta de equídeo selvagem, possivelmente da mesma linhagem do CAVALO SORRAIA, que vivia na Península Ibérica até ao século XVI.»

Aun así, hacendo una comparación entre las fuentes, me parece que la primera es más cientifica, con estudios cientificos hechos sobre los fenotipos y GENOTIPOS del sorraia.



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Sorraia o Tarpan Iberico
Última edición por linx el Dom Ago 22, 2010 12:22 am, editado 1 vez en total.


Kaiser
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por Kaiser »



linx
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Re: El Pony de Exmoor.

Mensaje por linx »

Kaiser escribió:Pongo aqui lo que decía:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equus_hydruntinus
Hola Kaiser

No tiene alguna referencia cientifica?



Sobre los zebros en la pagina del sorraia esta esto:

«ZEBRO – WILD HORSE

No one knows for sure nowadays the meaning of the term "zebro" in Portuguese, and there is some difference of opinions. Fact is, though, that up until the Middle Ages, official documents differentiate between the zebro and other wild animals. The Portuguese author Arsénio Raposo Cordeiro ("The Lusitano Horse – Son of the Wind") wrote regarding this matter:

"The Sorraia horse is probably a surviver of the equine type which existed until recently in a wild state and which in the Middle Ages was called 'zebro'…"

Although some authors assume that the word 'zebro' refers to 'bull, cow, calf, or bullock', the Lisbon Charter of 1179 is clear on this matter. It distinguishes clearly between the hide of the bull, of the zebro, and of the deer, each costing half a maradevi (ancient Gothic coin used in Spain and Portugal). In the 13th, 14th, and 15th centuries, one still finds similar references to the zebro, then considered a distinct equine.

Curiously enough, even today one still can find various places between the rivers Tagus and Guadiana named 'Vale de Zebro' (zebro valley), always referring to areas which had been wilder, or less inhabited. In the same region one can also find places called 'Vale de Eguas' (valley of mares), and 'Vale de Cavalos' (valley of horses), thus distinguishing between the wild, or zebro, horse, and the domesticated horse, the Lusitano horse, its probable descendent.

As Ruy d'Andrade pointed out as early as 1926, it were the Portuguese who first used the term 'zebra' in Africa. to define an (wild) animal of the horse family…"

In my opinion, the fact that the Portuguese named the African wild horse species "zebra" is a really strong indication for "zebro" (or "zebra", both spellings did occur) to have been the Portuguese term for a wild horse. That the area that became a Sorraia Refuge now is one known as Vale de Zebro since medieval times, is actually the icing on the cake!

S. Lûcio de Azevedo's mentioned in "Épocas de Portugal Económico, Es boços de Histórica“ official prices for wild animals according to the hunting laws in the year1253. It says there regarding their hides: „Of the hides of wild animals, the zevro's (yet another spelling of the same term) is the most precious; they cost 30 soldos, more than those of wild bulls, which cost 27 soldos." The hides of elk and deer were even cheaper. In a different paragraph the worth of a dead zevro is given as 50 soldos, 30 for the hide and 20 for the meat.

Ruy d’Andrade wrote that a man from Benavente in Portugal first named the African wild horse "zebras" during a trip through the Congo in 1578, and that in 1450, in the Portuguese town of Evora the price for a zevro was ruled to be 2 dineros, from which he drew the conclusion that wild horses lived in that region at least until 1450.



NEW INFORMATION REGARDING THE ZEBRO


In search for the original meaning of the term zebro, whether it applies to a wild horse or some other wild animal, there has been a valuable contribution made by Jesús Alonso from Spain. It stood to reason that the "zebro's" habitat was not confined to Portugal, but spread over much of the Iberian Peninsula, but Jesús Alonso found evidence to that effect! Not only that, but what he found clearly shows that the term did indeed apply to a wild equid – obviously the animal that Ruy d'Andrade tried to rescue, which he named "Sorraia horse"!

Jesús Alonso found in Spain the Spanish counterparts to the Portuguese field names "Vale de Zebro", etc. The Spanish term for the zebro was "cebro", "encebro", or "encebra", and was in use in Spain up to the XVI century.

"They were wild equids, 'rat'-colored, and had stripes on the back and legs," says Alonso. "So they were probably nothing but Sorraias. Some Spanish town and field names still bear the word Encebro, Cebro, or Encebra, such as Encebras (villages in Cuenca, Alicante and Granada), Cebreros (a village in Avila), or the Cebreiro (a mountain pass in Galicia)."


Evidently, the equid zebro, encebro, or encebra has been mentioned by different Spanish sources from the XIV to the XVI century in an area covering at least South, Central and Eastern Spain (that is where encebro-related field names are found). Jesús Alonso could also find historical sources where the encebro is mentioned, such as the book "El Libro de La Montería" (meaning "The Book of Hunting"), written in the first half of the XIV century under the auspices of king Alfonso XI of Castile. This book describes, often tediously, the best places for hunting within the domains of this king. It concentrates mainly on bear and boar, but says in one of the chapters about the medieval wildlife of Cartagena (in Murcia, southeastern Spain) that "encebras" lived there.

Besides in the El Libro de la Montería, encebras are mentioned in other sources: The "Relación de Chinchilla", written in 1576, describes the animals living around Chinchilla in southeastern Spain and describes the encebras as "ash-colored mares", resp. colored like rats, a bit short, whinnying as mares, and running faster than the best (riding) horse".

"Colored like rats" is indicating clearly that they were grullas, as the Portuguese term for grullas is "rato", which means "rat". This also strongly indicates that the original color of the Sorraia (or zebra, or encebra) was grulla/mouse-dun/rato, and not dun (baio). The "Arte Cisoria", written by a Valencian called E. de Villena, mentions encebra meat and says that it was eaten as a remedy against idleness/lazyness (back then, people often thought that by eating the flesh of an animal, that animal's energy, vitality, strength and abilities would become their own).

In the medieval tale "Romance del Rey Marsin" one of the verses says, "There goes King Marsin, a knight riding on a zebra, for lack of a (riding) horse".

The Libro de la Montería mentions encebras in the mountain areas of Murcia in book III, page 192, saying:
"The Villa Franca river is a good range for boar and enzebras in winter." "Cabezas de Copares is a good place for boar and enzebras in winter." "The Sierra de Zelchite is a good place for boar in winter and there are plenty of enzebras."

Here is a text found and translated by Jesús Alonso:

"Zebro is the name given in the middle ages, in Portugal, León and Castile, to a certain species of wild equine that lived in some parts of the Iberian peninsula until it became extinct towards the end of the XV century. In the kingdom of Aragon it was better known as Zebra or Encebra.
Medieval chronicles describe the zebro as a domestic ass-like animal, but taller, stronger and sturdier, besides being very fast and ill-tempered. The coat was greyish ("rat coat" is the term commonly used in medieval descriptions), interrupted by a black stripe along the back. It seems the nose was also black, and it had stripes on the legs. They lived in herds that preferred to wander on the plains, but withdrew to the mountain regions due to hunting and pressure from domestic stock.
Around the end of the XV century and beginning of the XVI century, the zebro disappears from the hunting chronicles, probably due to its extinction. However, there are isolated mentionings in later writings.
The zebro´s identity has been debated for a long time. At first it was thought they were simply feral asses of the North African species Equus asinus atlanticus, introduced a bit before the Roman conquest. But several aspects did not fit: their wild and unruly behaviour, their greater size and the fact that they were whinnying like horses. The possibility that it was an endemic species of the Iberian Peninsula grew stronger and stronger.
There are two curiosities left to tell about the zebro. First, that the last area where it was abundant, the southeast of Spain, kept some field names regarding this animal, such as Valdencebro (Teruel), Encebras (Alicante), or Las Encebras (Murcia) in Spain, and Ribeira de Zebro in the municipality of Moura, Portugal. Secondly, that when Portuguese started exploring the African coast and arrived at Cape Good Hope at the end of the XV century, they found striped equines that seemed to them very similar in shape and size to the zebros, so they called them zebras."

Fernando Prado from Brazil mentioned that a book titled "800 Years of Hunting in Portugal" describes the zebro as a hemionus (halfass). However, there are several reasons why that is unlikely:

1) Perhaps the strongest indication for the zebro to have been a horse, not a hemionus, is that the zebro is reported to have been whinnying like horses – no hemionus species does that.

2) Zebros are described as having had dark, or black, noses – which would be consistent with rato color, but not with the mealy mouth found in wild asses and halfasses.

3) None of the hemionus species have prominent leg stripes. Although they usually do have a dorsal stripe, and the Onager has a really broad one, their legs are light in color, mostly nearly white, as are their bellies and flanks. The Somali wild ass does have leg stripes, but even it doesn't have an appearance like the striped horses Ruy d'Andrade knew and portrayed, likely to remind the Portuguese explorer around Africa of their native wild equines when seeing zebras there... Especially the Quagga must have come pretty close in appearance to dun-factor horses as Ruy d'Andrade portrayed and desrcibed them. None of the wild asses and halfasses really resemble even remotely the zebra in color.

4) All hemionus species, and subspecies, are of a yellowish or reddish color, set off with whitish areas – Onager, Kiang, Khur, Kulan, Dschiggetai, and Syrian hemionus. None of them are what one could call rato (grulla). Of course one couldn't rule out the existence of a rato-colored hemionus subspecies in southwestern Europe, namely, Iberia, but that is really a far stretch, when all existing hemionus are more baio in color than rato (even though they differ from what we know as baios).

5) While archeologists and paleozoologists are agreed on the existence of a hemionus population in Europe (and a wild asinus population as well) in prehistoric times (to have become extinct 7,000 years ago at the latest), all hemionus species and subspecies are and were found in Asia and Arabia – far from Iberia. Again, it is some stretch to believe, and cries for substantiation, that they should have become extict everywhere else in northern Africa and the Mediterranean, but survived in Iberia – the farthest from their original stronghold.

Maybe something that one should also consider here is that Ruy d'Andrade, in his report of his first encounter with the wild bunch of horses that inspired him to pursue his Sorraia project, was reminded by them of a herd of hemionuses. It can't be ruled out that people less educated in equines than he was would simply have considered them to be – if not halfasses, because for that they would have had to be properly educated again – but a different kind of animal (species), which they called zebro/encebro. Today, Sorraias are becoming more and more small editions of the modern Lusitano, but there used to be those that were quite different in phenotype – leaner, with less muscling, rafter-hipped, often ewe-necked, and with ears that tend to be longish. Such horses, especially when in poor condition, definitely resemble a hemionus to a degree.

Jesús Alonso said:

"I do not think zebros were wild asses, not only because of the whinnying or the color, but also because there are no wild donkies in cave paintings or other paintings, or any artistic evidence of wild donkies living in the Iberian peninsula, and they are not mentioned by Greeks or Romans, who, on the other hand, mentioned the existence of wild horses."


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